1 Jesus is Distinct from the FatherSteve Morrison July 21, 2015

2 Debate Proposition Proposition: Jesus did not thank, speak to, pray to, submit to, and be obedient to Jesus: rather it was to another who is not Jesus: God the Father. The rest of this presentation affirms that proposition.

3 Intro It is not much good to have the same Bible if you are tricked by a new dictionary. Trinitarians believe what the Bible teaches: it was all of Jesus, not the Father or Holy Spirit, whose blood saves us.

4 Questions Did the Father and the Holy Spirit die on the cross, saying “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me”, or was it another person? Were there two Jesus’ who suffered or just One? Did “Jesus” die for us, or did He send somebody else to do the job?

5 1. Only One Person died for us and atoned for our sins. Who is He?The apostles and prophets did many good things for us. But, ... there was only One Person who died for us. Was He the Person who is the Father (though in a different role)? If not, was the person who died not God, a different (and perhaps lesser) god, or the same God?

6 2. It was Jesus who suffered and died for us, and rose from the dead.It was Jesus who hung on the cross and died for our sins. It was Jesus who rose from the dead.

7 2a. Suffered Christ: Lk 24:26; Acts 3:18; 17:3; 26:23; 2 Cor 1:5; 1 Pet 1:11; 2:21,23; 3:18; 4:1 Son of Man: Mt 17:12; Mk 8:31; 9:12,22; Lk 9:22; 17:25; 22:15-22

8 2b. Crucified Christ: 1 Cor 1:23; 2 Cor 13:4; Gal 2:20; 3:1Jesus: Mt 27:27-31; 28:5; Mk 15:15; Lk 23:23-25 (implied); Jn 19:23,41; Acts 2:36 Jesus Christ: 1 Cor 2:2 Jesus the Nazarene: Mk 16:6; Acts 2:22-23 Lord: Rev 11:8 Lord and Christ: Acts 2:36 Lord of glory: 1 Cor 2:8 Son of God: Heb 6:6 Son of Man: Mt 26:2; Lk 24:7

9 2c. Died Christ: Rom 5:6,8; 6:8; 8:34; 14:9,15; 1 Cor 15:3Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24-25; 6:3; 8:34 God’s Son: Rom 5:11; 8:3 Jesus: Jn 11:51; 12:30-31; 18:32 Jesus of Nazareth: Acts 2:22-23 Lord Jesus Christ: Gal 1:3

10 2d. Raised / Rise from the deadChrist: Rom 6:4,9; 8:34; 14:9; 1 Cor 15:3,12 Jesus: Rom 8:11 Son of man: Lk 24:7

11 2e. Early Witnesses 29 early Christian writers said it was Jesus who was crucified or died on the cross.

12 3. It was only One Person whoose blood was shed for us on the cross.It was not the Father, or Spirit, but Jesus. It was not two people or two wills (as Nestorians say).

13 3a. Blood Christ: Rom 5:8-9; 1 Cor 10:16; Eph 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2,19Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24-25; 1 Cor 10:16; Heb 9:11,14 God: Acts 20:28 Jesus: Mt 26:26-28; Mk 14:22-23; Acts 5:28-30; Heb 10:19 Jesus Christ: Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5 Jesus, His Son: 1 Jn 1:7 Lord Jesus: 1 Cor 11:25

14 3a. Blood -continued The Lamb: Rev 5:9; 7:14; 12:11The Lord: 1 Cor 11:27 Son of God: Heb 10:29 Son of Man: Lk 22:20-22; Jn 6:53 Son of His love: Col 1:20 Lord: 1 Cor 11:26 I am saved by the blood of Jesus. How could someone be saved by the blood of the Spirit, or the Father?

15 3b. Body Christ: Rom 7:4; 1 Cor 10:16Christ and also Jesus: Acts 2:31-32 God was manifested in the flesh: 1 Tim 3:16 Jesus: Mt 27:58; Mk 15:43; 16:1; Lk 23:52; Jn 2:19-21; 19:38-42 Jesus Christ: Heb 10:10

16 4. Jesus is God, but He is not separate GodFather, Son, and Holy Spirit are inseparably One Being. Mt 28:19; Jn 10:27-30; 12:44-46,49-50; 14:9-11; 15:26; 16:13-15; 17:10; Rom 8:9-11; 1 Cor 2: The Father & Jesus share at least 25 names and titles (Lord of Lords Rev 17:14; Dt 10:17, Alpha & Omega Rev 1:8;17-18). John 20:28-29a “And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and My God!' Jesus said to Him,” 2 Jn 3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” 2 Jn 7 “Many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.”

17 In Jn 6:33, whom is Jesus going to?5. But within the Godhead, there are eternally three distinct Persons, who interact with each other. Mt 3:16-17; Lk 3:21-22; Jn 1:1; 6:38; 14:31; 15:26; 16:28; 17:5; Acts 5:31-32; Heb 5:7-8 Jn 11:41,42 Who was hearing Jesus when He prayed? Was it sort of like talking into a disconnected telephone? In Jn 6:33, whom is Jesus going to?

18 5a. Was Jesus just being thankful for Himself???Why did Jesus thank the Father that He heard Him in Jn 11:41? Jesus thanked the Father in these places. At the feeding of the five thousand. Mt 14:19; Mk 6:41; Lk 9:16; Jn 6:11,23 At the feeding of the four thousand. Mt 15:36; Mk 8:6 At the Lord’s Supper. Mt 26:26,27; Mk 14:22-23; Lk 22:17,19 After Emmaus. Lk 24:30

19 5b. Who is at the right hand of the Father?Acts 7:54-55 “When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, ‘Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!’” Mt 22:44; 26:64; Mk 13:26; 14:62; 16:19; Lk 20:42; 22:69; Acts 2:34; 7:56; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Heb 1:3; 10:12; 1 Pet 3:22 1 Cor 11:3b “The head of Christ is God.”

20 6. A mountain base with 3 peaks is 1 and 3A single mountain base with three peaks has to be described as both one and three. How much more is it proper that the Bible speaks of God as only One, and also as Three. One: Dt 4:35-9; 6:4; Isa 43:10-12; 44:6,8; 45:5-6,14,21; 46:9; Joel 2:27; Mal 2:10; Mk 12:29-33; 1 Tim 1:17; 2:5; 6:15-16 Three: Isa 48:16; Mt 3:16-17; 28:19; Jn 3:34-35; 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15; Rom 15:13-17; 15:30; 1 Cor 6:11; 2 Cor 13:14; Gal 2:21-3:2; 4:6; Eph 2:18; 5:18-20; Col 1:6-8; 1 Th 1:3-5; 4:2,8; 5:18-19; 2 Th 2:13-14; Tt 3:4-6; 1 Pet 1:2; 3:14-17; Heb 9:14; 1Jn 3:23-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev 4:8

21 6a. The Son will be the Son foreverHeb 1:8-9 “But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.'” Lk 1:33a Mary’s Son will reign over the house of Jacob forever Rev 12:10 “kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.” (whose Christ), Php 2:5-9 + Heb 13:8 Lk 1:33b “His kingdom will never end.” Mal 3:6 “I the Lord do not change.”

22 7. Who came to earth? God sent God (Heb 1:6,8-9)The only-Begotten Person was not a mere man, and not a separate divine being who gave us salvation. God Himself was born of Mary, it was God’s fully human body that was broken on that bloodstained cross, stained with God’s blood. But this is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, but Jesus the Son of God. Rom 8:32 “He who did spare his own Son.”

23 8. Jesus Christ voluntarily became a servant of God!Acts 4:27-30 “Jesus, holy servant of God.” Mt 20:28 “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Jn 20:17 “Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'”

24 Christ Jesus … Equal to GodPhilippians 2:5-9 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal to God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him [who?]... ”

25 18 Early Believers taught they were distinctIgnatius of Antioch (died 107 or 116 A.D.) Justin Martyr (c A.D.) Shepherd of Hermas (c.160 A.D.) (implied) Athenagoras (177 A.D.) Theophilus of Antioch ( /188 A.D.) (partial) Irenaeus of Lyons ( A.D.) Clement of Alexandria ( A.D.) (implied) Tertullian ( A.D.) Hippolytus ( /236 A.D.) Origen ( A.D.) Novatian (250/4-256/7 A.D.) Cyprian of Carthage (c A.D.) Gregory Thaumaturgus ( A.D.) Dionysius of Alexandria ( A.D.) Dionysius of Rome ( A.D.) (implied) Archelaus ( A.D.) (implied) Lucian of Antioch (c A.D.) Methodius (c A.D.) Lactantius (c.303-c.325 A.D.) (implied) Alexander of Alexandria ( A.D.)

26 Conclusions on Jesus Distinct from the FatherHow many persons died for our sins on the center cross at Calvary? Was He God? Was He God the Father? 1. Jesus, Christ, Son of God, Son of Man are all the same, single person. 1 Jn 2:22-23 2. This person is distinct but not separate from God the Father & the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:3,17; 1 Pet 1:3; Heb 1:9 Bible Verses are from the NKJV.

27 T12. Father and Son are distinct -aIgnatius (died 107 or 116 A.D.) “but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all.” Letter to the Ephesians ch.3 p.60 Justin Martyr (c A.D.) “Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,-numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.” Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew ch.56 p.223. See also ch.62 Shepherd of Hermas (c.160 A.D.) book 3 ninth similitude ch.12 p.47 (implied) says that the Son of God is older than all His creatures, and “He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation.” Athenagoras (177 A.D.) says the Father, Son, and Spirit have distinction in unity. A Plea for Christians ch.12 p.134 Athenagoras (177 A.D.) “The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognize also a multitude of angels and ministers,…” A Plea for Christians ch.10 p.133

28 T12. Father and Son are distinct -bTheophilus of Antioch ( /188 A.D.) (partial) “God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.” Theophilus to Autolycus book 2 ch.10 p.98 Irenaeus ( A.D.) says “the Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father; and that Wisdom also, which is the Spirit, was present with Him, anterior to all creation.” He then goes on quoting Proverb 3:19,20 and so forth, showing that the Holy Spirit is the third person. Irenaeus Against Heresies book 4 ch.20.3 p.488 Clement of Alexandria ( A.D.) (implied) “But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, and most holy, and most potent, and most princely, and most kingly, and most beneficent. This is the highest excellence, which orders all things in accordance with the Father's will, and holds the helm of the universe in the best way, with unwearied and tireless power, working all things in which it operates, keeping in view its hidden designs.” Stromata book 7 ch.2 p.524

29 T12. Father and Son are distinct -cTertullian (c.213 A.D.) “And if, to quote another passage, ‘Thus saith the Lord to my Lord Christ,’ the Lord who speaks to the Father of Christ must be a distinct Being. Moreover, when the apostle in his epistle prays, ‘That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of knowledge,’ He must be other (than Christ), who is the God of Jesus Christ, the bestower of spiritual gifts. And once for all, that we may not wander through every passage, He ‘who raised up Christ from the dead, and is also to raise up our mortal bodies,’ must certainly be, as the quickener, different from the dead Father, or even from the quickened Father, if Christ who died is the Father.” Against Praxeas ch.28 p.625 Hippolytus ( /236 A.D.) wrote an entire work against Noetus who “alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died.” Against the Heresy of One Noetus ch.1 p.223 Hippolytus ( /236 A.D.) “He [Jesus] did not say, ‘I and the Father am one, but are one.’ For the word are is not said of one person, but it refers to two persons, and one power.” and quotes 1 Corinthians 15: Against the Heresy of One Noetus ch.7 p.226

30 T12. Father and Son are distinct -dOrigen ( A.D.) “Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two Gods, and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be God all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other.” Commentary on John book 2 ch.2 p.323 Novatian (250/4-256/7 A.D.) (implied) spoke of Sabellius’ heresy as sacrilegious in believing Christ is not the Son, but the Father. Treatise on the Trinity ch.12 p Dionysius of Alexandria ( A.D.) “The plant that springs from the root is something distinct from that whence it grows up; and yet it is of one nature with it. And the river which flows from the fountain is something distinct from the fountain. For we cannot call either the river a fountain, or the fountain a river. Nevertheless we allow that they are both one according to nature, and also one in substance; and we admit that the fountain may be conceived of as father, and that the river is what is begotten of the fountain.” On the One Substance p.120 Dionysius bishop of Rome ( A.D.) (implied) “For he [Sabellius] blasphemes in saying that the Son Himself is the Father, and vice versa;” Dionysius of Rome Against the Sabellians ch.1 p.365

31 T12. Father and Son are distinct -eArchelaus ( A.D.) (implied) quotes Philippians 2:9 Disputation with Manes ch.48 p.224 Lucian of Antioch (c A.D.) “clearly of the Father who is really a Father, and of a Son who is really a Son, and of the Holy Ghost who is really a Holy Ghost; these names being assigned not vaguely or idly, but indicating accurately the special personality, order, and glory of those named, so that in Personality they are three, but in harmony one.” Creed of Lucian of Antioch in The Creeds of Christendom by Philip Schaff vol.2 p.27 Methodius (c A.D.) “For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreate, without end, and to which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Ghost to be what in substance and personality He is. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty. For not on that account is the Son of God called king, because for our sakes He was made man,” Oration on Psalms ch.5 p.397. (also The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8 ch.10 p.338 and ch.11 p.339)

32 T12. Father and Son are distinct -fLactantius (c.303-c.325 A.D.) (implied) “but He [God] sent His own Son, to call all nations to the favour of God. ... Therefore the Supreme Father ordered Him [His own Son] to descend to the earth, and to put on a human body, that, being subject to the sufferings of the flesh, He might teach virtue and patience not only by words, but also by deeds.” Epitome of the Divine Institutes ch.43 p.239 Alexander of Alexandria ( A.D.) “Such as this: 'I and My Father are one,' which indeed the Lord says, not as proclaiming Himself to be the Father, nor to demonstrate that two persons are one; but that the Son of the Father most exactly preserves the expressed likeness of the Father, inasmuch as He has by nature impressed upon Him His similitude in every respect, and is the image of the Father in no way discrepant, and the expressed figure of the primitive exemplar.” Epistles on the Arian Heresy letter 1 ch.9 p.294

33 T22. The Word was distinct from the Father at Creation -aPsalm 33:6 John 1:1,3 Hebrews 11:3 “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.” Shepherd of Hermas (c.160 A.D.) book 3 ninth similitude ch.12 p.47 says that the Son of God is older than all His creatures, and “He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation.” Tatian’s Diatessaron (died 172 A.D.) section 1 p.43 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God is the Word. This was in the beginning with God. Everything was by his hand, and without him not even one existing thing was made.” Melito of Sardis ( /180 A.D.) vol.8 ch.4 p.756 calls Jesus the Word of God; He who was begotten before the light; He who is Creator together with the Father;” Irenaeus ( A.D.) “Thus saith the Scripture, to that effect: 'By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and all the might of them, by the spirit of His mount.' [Psalm 336]. And again, 'All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.' [John 1:3] ... For God needs none of all these things, but is He who, by His Word and Spirit, makes, and disposes, and governs all things, and commands all things into existence, - He who formed the world (for the world is of all),” Irenaeus Against Heresies book 1 ch.22 p.347 He also quotes John 1:3 in Irenaeus Against Heresies book 2 ch.2 p.362; book 3 ch.8 p.421

34 T22. The Word was distinct from the Father at Creation -bClement of Alexandria ( A.D.) quotes Hebrews 11:3-4,25 in Stromata book 2 ch.4 p.350. He quotes half of John 1:3 in Stromata book 1 ch.9 p.310. Tertullian ( A.D.) “In the Gospel, moreover, I discover a Minister and Witness of the Creator, even His word.” Against Hermogenes ch.22 p.490. He quotes John 1:1-3 in Against Hermogenes ch.21 p.489 and Against Praxeas ch.20 p.615. Tertullian (208 A.D.) “We in like manner say that the Father of Christ is invisible, for we know that it was the Son who was seen in ancient times (whenever any appearance was vouchsafed to men in the name of God) as the image of (the Father) Himself. He must not be regarded, however, as making any difference between a visible and an invisible God; because long before he wrote this we find a description of our God to this effect: 'No man can see the Lord, and live.' If Christ is not 'the first-begotten before every creature,' as that 'Word of God by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made;' [John 1:3] if 'all things were' not 'in Him created, whether in heaven or on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers; 'if 'all things were' not 'created by Him and for Him' (for these truths Marcion ought not to allow concerning Him), then the apostle could not have so positively laid it down, that 'He is before all.'” Five Books Against Marcion book 5 ch.19 p.471

35 T22. The Word was distinct from the Father at Creation -cHippolytus ( /236 A.D.) First quotes John 1:1-3. Then he says, “And beneath He [John] says, 'The world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not; He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.' If, then, said he, the world was made by Him, according to the word of the prophet 'By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made,' [Psalm 33:6] then this is the Word that was also made manifest.” Against the Heresy of One Noetus ch.12 p.228 Origen ( A.D.) “John also, who lived after him, said, 'That which was in the Logos was life, and the life was the light of men;' which 'true light lighteneth every man that cometh into the world' (i.e., the true world, which is perceived by the understanding), and maketh him a light of the world: 'For this light shone in our hearts, to give the light of the glorious Gospel of God in the face of Christ Jesus.' And therefore that very ancient prophet, who prophesied many generations before the reign of Cyrus (for he was older than he by more than fourteen generations), expressed himself in these words: 'The Lord is my light and my salvation: whom shall I fear?' and, 'Thy law is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path;' and again, 'The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, was manifested towards us;' and, 'In Thy light we shall see light.' And the Logos, exhorting us to come to this light, says, in the prophecies of Isaiah: 'Enlighten thyself, enlighten thyself, O Jerusalem; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.'” Origen Against Celsus book 6 ch.5 p.575 Novatian (250/4-256/7 A.D.) “But the Word of God descended which was there, - the Word of God, I say, and God by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.” Treatise Concerning the Trinity ch.14 p

36 T22. The Word was distinct from the Father at Creation -dAdamantius (c.300 A.D.) (partial, Christ, not Word) “Listen to what the Apostle says, 'Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. Hear John the Evangelist: 'Through Him all things came into existence; not one created ting came into existence apart from Him.'” Dialogue on the Truth Faith Fourth Part ch.15 p.146 Victorinus of Petau (martyred 304 A.D.) “But the author of the whole creation is Jesus. His name is the Word; for thus His Father says: 'My heart hath emitted a good word.' John the evangelist thus says: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made that was made.'” On the Creation of the World p.342 Athanasius (c.318 A.D.) “To which also Paul refers when he says, 'By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the Word of God, ...also He [God] has made all things out of nothing by His own Word, Jesus Christ our Lord.” On the Incarnation of the Word ch.3 p.37

37 T22. The Word was distinct from the Father at Creation -eLactantius (c.303-c.325 A.D.) “John also taught” and then quotes John 1:1-3. “But the Greeks speak of Him as the Logos, more befittingly than we do as the word, or speech, for Logos signifies both speech and reason, inasmuch as He is both the voice and the wisdom of God. And of this divine speech not even the philosophers were ignorant, since Zeno represents the Logos as the arranger of the established order of things, and the framer of the universe:” The Divine Institutes book 4 ch.8-9 p.107 Alexander of Alexandria ( A.D.) “Who that hears John saying, 'In the beginning was the Word,' does not condemn those who say there was a time when He was not? Who that hears these words of the Gospel, 'the only-begotten Son;' and, 'by Him were all things made,'” Epistles on the Arian Heresy Letter 2 ch.3 p.297